PARIS — Serbia faces a crucial test Monday in its bid to join the European Union despite its failure to arrest Ratko Mladic, the former general and most-wanted war crimes suspect on the continent.
Mr. Mladic has eluded arrest since 1995, and has remained at large for more than two years after his fellow fugitive, the former Bosnian strongman Radovan Karadzic, was captured.
Foreign ministers from 27 nations are gathering in Luxembourg on Monday for a meeting that includes a debate on whether to move forward on Serbia’s bid for membership. Most countries have already signaled that they are supporting the step to reward Serbia for accepting Kosovo’s independence and to shore up a pro-Western government in advance of elections there in 2012.
The lone dissenting voice is the Netherlands, whose peacekeepers failed to protect the more than 8,000 men and boys killed in the 1995 massacre of Srebrenica, which Mr. Mladic is accused of orchestrating. The Dutch and Serge Brammertz — the prosecutor for the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia — say they fear the European Union will lose its leverage to press the hunt for Mr. Mladic if Serbia is put on track for E.U. membership.
In recent days, Mr. Brammertz has granted a number of interviews raising his concerns. His words have irked some European diplomats and Serbian authorities, who insist that an arrest of Mr. Mladic is imminent despite failed raids and evidence that Serbian officials and military authorities protected him at least until February 2008.
A few days in advance of the critical meeting of foreign ministers, President Boris Tadic of Serbia declared, “I believe that the arrest of Ratko Mladic is a matter of time.”
Mr. Brammertz, in an interview, and Mr. Tadic, in response to written questions, outlined their views.
SERGE BRAMMERTZ, prosecutor, International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, or I.C.T.Y.
Q. Is this a critical moment in the hunt for Mr. Mladic?
A. Yes, it is. The first arrest warrant against Mladic was issued 15 years ago, in 1995. Mladic is one of the last two fugitives, the other being Goran Hadzic. The time for the Tribunal is running out and if we want to see Mladic tried before the I.C.T.Y., his immediate arrest is of paramount importance.
In order to achieve this arrest, we have strongly recommended Serbian authorities to undertake a review of investigative strategy to deploy more people and adopt a multidisciplinary approach. Look, more needs to be done. Time is running out. This tribunal will close in the near future.
We want to give a wake-up call that more can be done and needs to be done. We have not said that no efforts are being made to improve cooperation with my office. The arrival of Mladic diaries and related materials was seen as a very positive sign. What has been most instrumental in securing arrests in the past are incentives coming from the international community, for example, the U.S.-linked government financial aid to the arrest of fugitives in the past. And more recently, the link has been established between the E.U. enlargement process and full cooperation with The Hague.
My visit to Srebrenica last April was the most emotional moment for me in my three years with the tribunal. I could see that for all of the survivors and relatives, Srebrenica is not an event from the past, but something dominating their life, not only today but also tomorrow. And the No. 1 priority for the victims is to see Mladic in The Hague.
Q. Why do you believe Serbian authorities are really looking for Mr. Mladic?
A. It’s difficult for me to answer this question. After the arrest of Karadzic in July 2008, hopes were very high that Mladic’s arrest would follow. In reality it was much more complicated and the new authorities responsible for the investigations had to work with new information coming in and old information from the past. It was difficult because they were reviewing old information to see if it was manipulated, if people acted properly. In our December evaluation, we recognized the efforts made in the search for the fugitives and we expressed careful, cautious optimism that the arrests would follow. Unfortunately, investigative leads at that time did not bring the success we hoped. That’s why in our June report we said that, after two years of unsuccessful operations, a review of investigative strategy was required.
Q. Were you unsatisfied with Serbian progress in your last summer evaluation?
Foreign ministers from 27 nations are gathering in Luxembourg on Monday for a meeting that includes a debate on whether to move forward on Serbia’s bid for membership. Most countries have already signaled that they are supporting the step to reward Serbia for accepting Kosovo’s independence and to shore up a pro-Western government in advance of elections there in 2012.
The lone dissenting voice is the Netherlands, whose peacekeepers failed to protect the more than 8,000 men and boys killed in the 1995 massacre of Srebrenica, which Mr. Mladic is accused of orchestrating. The Dutch and Serge Brammertz — the prosecutor for the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia — say they fear the European Union will lose its leverage to press the hunt for Mr. Mladic if Serbia is put on track for E.U. membership.
In recent days, Mr. Brammertz has granted a number of interviews raising his concerns. His words have irked some European diplomats and Serbian authorities, who insist that an arrest of Mr. Mladic is imminent despite failed raids and evidence that Serbian officials and military authorities protected him at least until February 2008.
A few days in advance of the critical meeting of foreign ministers, President Boris Tadic of Serbia declared, “I believe that the arrest of Ratko Mladic is a matter of time.”
Mr. Brammertz, in an interview, and Mr. Tadic, in response to written questions, outlined their views.
SERGE BRAMMERTZ, prosecutor, International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, or I.C.T.Y.
Q. Is this a critical moment in the hunt for Mr. Mladic?
A. Yes, it is. The first arrest warrant against Mladic was issued 15 years ago, in 1995. Mladic is one of the last two fugitives, the other being Goran Hadzic. The time for the Tribunal is running out and if we want to see Mladic tried before the I.C.T.Y., his immediate arrest is of paramount importance.
In order to achieve this arrest, we have strongly recommended Serbian authorities to undertake a review of investigative strategy to deploy more people and adopt a multidisciplinary approach. Look, more needs to be done. Time is running out. This tribunal will close in the near future.
We want to give a wake-up call that more can be done and needs to be done. We have not said that no efforts are being made to improve cooperation with my office. The arrival of Mladic diaries and related materials was seen as a very positive sign. What has been most instrumental in securing arrests in the past are incentives coming from the international community, for example, the U.S.-linked government financial aid to the arrest of fugitives in the past. And more recently, the link has been established between the E.U. enlargement process and full cooperation with The Hague.
My visit to Srebrenica last April was the most emotional moment for me in my three years with the tribunal. I could see that for all of the survivors and relatives, Srebrenica is not an event from the past, but something dominating their life, not only today but also tomorrow. And the No. 1 priority for the victims is to see Mladic in The Hague.
Q. Why do you believe Serbian authorities are really looking for Mr. Mladic?
A. It’s difficult for me to answer this question. After the arrest of Karadzic in July 2008, hopes were very high that Mladic’s arrest would follow. In reality it was much more complicated and the new authorities responsible for the investigations had to work with new information coming in and old information from the past. It was difficult because they were reviewing old information to see if it was manipulated, if people acted properly. In our December evaluation, we recognized the efforts made in the search for the fugitives and we expressed careful, cautious optimism that the arrests would follow. Unfortunately, investigative leads at that time did not bring the success we hoped. That’s why in our June report we said that, after two years of unsuccessful operations, a review of investigative strategy was required.
Q. Were you unsatisfied with Serbian progress in your last summer evaluation?
A. We are always making a distinction between two aspects — the first one is cooperation in ongoing cases: access to archives, protecting witnesses. With this daily interaction, it is very much business as usual. No particular problems were mentioned in our last report in this regard. The second element and our priority No. 1 is the search for fugitives. In the June report, we were more critical in relation to the search for the fugitives by saying that despite a number of operations there has been no real progress. We need to look at why there are no results.
Q. What can you do to increase pressure?
A. What we can do is to take every opportunity to emphasize that the arrest of the fugitives is crucial; for victims who want to see justice finally done; for reconciliation in the region; but also for the credibility of the international community. The tribunal was established to ensure the prosecution of people like Mladic, who is charged with responsibility for the worst massacre in the heart of Europe since the Second World War.
But the primary response is with the state authorities. We are not in charge of operations on the ground.
Q. If Mr. Mladic is not produced, what more can be done in the coming months?
A. It is clear time is running out. I didn’t make these comments for the pleasure of being critical. It is a wake-up call. Operations have been going on for two years and we need to do more. The only thing I can do is encourage the Serbian authorities to increase their efforts based on our recommendations and to ask the international community to maintain incentives. They have worked very well in the past and have proved to be the most efficient way of obtaining results.
Q. If Mr. Mladic stays on the run, then what?
A. That’s the difficulty of all international tribunals. We can put together our cases and have hundreds of witnesses confirming the crimes. But we do not have control over getting the suspects and bringing them to the Hague. The two key groups are the countries where the fugitives are hiding and those who have political influence on those countries.
We have mentioned on many occasions that the arrest and trial must take place during the current lifetime of the tribunal. In the worst case scenario, if Mladic and Hadzic are arrested after the tribunal closes, the Security Council is working on a so-called “Residual Mechanism,” which would have the capacity to try the fugitives. The message should be clear: whenever and wherever the fugitives are arrested there will be a trial. Nobody can sit out justice.
President BORIS TADIC of Serbia.
Q. Mr. Mladic has been at large for 15 years. Why is it proving so difficult to find him and why hasn't he been handed over to The Hague?
A. Over the past 15 years, I have to say that, regretfully, the political will to extradite him hasn’t always been there. Until 2000, he didn’t even have to hide. Only in 2002 did our Parliament adopt a law on cooperating with the Hague Tribunal. And only in 2008 — that is to say, only after the formation of the current Government of Serbia — did the political will and operational capacity to arrest Ratko Mladic become the most important state priority. Previous governments did not, unfortunately, place any particular importance on this issue.
Very soon after the formation of the current Serbian government, Radovan Karadzic was arrested, which is a clear and unambiguous indication of our commitment to arrest Ratko Mladic as well.
Q. Investigators, including senior intelligence people who were monitoring Mr. Mladic, have told us that the Serbian government knew where Mr. Mladic was until February 2008, at which time he went deeper underground. How is it that the Serbian government at that time knew where Mr. Mladic was and didn't turn him in?
A. The only answer I can provide is that this government of Serbia is doing absolutely everything in its power to locate and arrest him.
Q. Why should the West believe that Serbia is doing all it can to find Mr. Mladic when he hasn't been found in a small country, where so many resources are being devoted to finding him? Has Mr. Mladic outsmarted everyone?
A. Ratko Mladic is not an ordinary fugitive. We’re talking about an experienced soldier with a lot of wartime experience. Our information indicates that those who were previously involved in hiding Ratko Mladic are also former or retired officers, and they too have a lot of experience. A majority used to work in the intelligence or security services, and they were highly-trained in concealment, evasion and tracking techniques.
So our task is not an easy one. All our efforts at capturing Ratko Mladic are coordinated with our European partners; together we’re trying to counter his methods. I believe that in time we will successfully locate and arrest him.
Mr. Mladic is still a mythical hero to many Serbs. Do you think Serbia has had a historical reckoning about its role the Balkan wars of the past?
A. Firstly, we have to recall that during the wartime ’90s, all the countries of the former Yugoslavia were infected by vigorous media propaganda campaigns. As a consequence, parts of each of our post-conflict societies in the region perceive war criminals as heroes. This is not therefore specific to Serbia.
However, there are problems that are specific to Serbia, problems that other countries have not had in the context of their European integration processes. I am referring of course to the problem of Kosovo.
Some of our citizens see the Kosovo situation as a further injustice against our nation, and it makes their blood boil. They dismiss the facts related to the terrible crimes Mladic is accused of committing as part of a conspiracy against Serbia. This way of thinking is reinforced by some of the political forces in this country. Yet I am certain that a majority of the citizens of Serbia support the policy that all war criminals need to be tried and justly punished.
And Serbia will bring its international obligations to completion. Even if the Hague Tribunal were to cease to function tomorrow, this government would continue to search for Mladic using all the resources at its disposal, because this is our moral obligation toward the innocent victims — and because it is the only way to achieve reconciliation between the peoples in our region.
Doreen Carvajal reported from The Hague and Dan Bilefsky from Prague.
But the primary response is with the state authorities. We are not in charge of operations on the ground.
Q. If Mr. Mladic is not produced, what more can be done in the coming months?
A. It is clear time is running out. I didn’t make these comments for the pleasure of being critical. It is a wake-up call. Operations have been going on for two years and we need to do more. The only thing I can do is encourage the Serbian authorities to increase their efforts based on our recommendations and to ask the international community to maintain incentives. They have worked very well in the past and have proved to be the most efficient way of obtaining results.
Q. If Mr. Mladic stays on the run, then what?
A. That’s the difficulty of all international tribunals. We can put together our cases and have hundreds of witnesses confirming the crimes. But we do not have control over getting the suspects and bringing them to the Hague. The two key groups are the countries where the fugitives are hiding and those who have political influence on those countries.
We have mentioned on many occasions that the arrest and trial must take place during the current lifetime of the tribunal. In the worst case scenario, if Mladic and Hadzic are arrested after the tribunal closes, the Security Council is working on a so-called “Residual Mechanism,” which would have the capacity to try the fugitives. The message should be clear: whenever and wherever the fugitives are arrested there will be a trial. Nobody can sit out justice.
President BORIS TADIC of Serbia.
Q. Mr. Mladic has been at large for 15 years. Why is it proving so difficult to find him and why hasn't he been handed over to The Hague?
A. Over the past 15 years, I have to say that, regretfully, the political will to extradite him hasn’t always been there. Until 2000, he didn’t even have to hide. Only in 2002 did our Parliament adopt a law on cooperating with the Hague Tribunal. And only in 2008 — that is to say, only after the formation of the current Government of Serbia — did the political will and operational capacity to arrest Ratko Mladic become the most important state priority. Previous governments did not, unfortunately, place any particular importance on this issue.
Very soon after the formation of the current Serbian government, Radovan Karadzic was arrested, which is a clear and unambiguous indication of our commitment to arrest Ratko Mladic as well.
Q. Investigators, including senior intelligence people who were monitoring Mr. Mladic, have told us that the Serbian government knew where Mr. Mladic was until February 2008, at which time he went deeper underground. How is it that the Serbian government at that time knew where Mr. Mladic was and didn't turn him in?
A. The only answer I can provide is that this government of Serbia is doing absolutely everything in its power to locate and arrest him.
Q. Why should the West believe that Serbia is doing all it can to find Mr. Mladic when he hasn't been found in a small country, where so many resources are being devoted to finding him? Has Mr. Mladic outsmarted everyone?
A. Ratko Mladic is not an ordinary fugitive. We’re talking about an experienced soldier with a lot of wartime experience. Our information indicates that those who were previously involved in hiding Ratko Mladic are also former or retired officers, and they too have a lot of experience. A majority used to work in the intelligence or security services, and they were highly-trained in concealment, evasion and tracking techniques.
So our task is not an easy one. All our efforts at capturing Ratko Mladic are coordinated with our European partners; together we’re trying to counter his methods. I believe that in time we will successfully locate and arrest him.
Mr. Mladic is still a mythical hero to many Serbs. Do you think Serbia has had a historical reckoning about its role the Balkan wars of the past?
A. Firstly, we have to recall that during the wartime ’90s, all the countries of the former Yugoslavia were infected by vigorous media propaganda campaigns. As a consequence, parts of each of our post-conflict societies in the region perceive war criminals as heroes. This is not therefore specific to Serbia.
However, there are problems that are specific to Serbia, problems that other countries have not had in the context of their European integration processes. I am referring of course to the problem of Kosovo.
Some of our citizens see the Kosovo situation as a further injustice against our nation, and it makes their blood boil. They dismiss the facts related to the terrible crimes Mladic is accused of committing as part of a conspiracy against Serbia. This way of thinking is reinforced by some of the political forces in this country. Yet I am certain that a majority of the citizens of Serbia support the policy that all war criminals need to be tried and justly punished.
And Serbia will bring its international obligations to completion. Even if the Hague Tribunal were to cease to function tomorrow, this government would continue to search for Mladic using all the resources at its disposal, because this is our moral obligation toward the innocent victims — and because it is the only way to achieve reconciliation between the peoples in our region.
Doreen Carvajal reported from The Hague and Dan Bilefsky from Prague.
ny times
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